One State Solution.

Exploring themes: Race and Imperialism November 21, 2008

Filed under: imperialism,power,race,racism — Big Momma @ 10:27 am


We are seeing today the end of Imperialism as we knew it, and there needs to be a recovery and healing at the level of consciousness and perception.And having said that the ways forward are perhaps going to show themselves with more and more collaboration and intermingling between colonised peoples.This section is exclusively dedicated to the formation of the self-affirmed subaltern agent.


So, race… February 9, 2008

Filed under: race — Big Momma @ 11:26 am

<LloydJupiter> s e n t e n c e f r a g m e n t s, t y p i n g s p l a t t e r e d

<Doolittle> hmm. lets talk about race.

<mu42> damned space-time toys anyways

<LloydJupiter> lets talk about if race really exists

<mu42> Ready….. Set…. GO!!

<Mabus> it depends on your definition of race

<mu42> The race begins

<Mabus> if you just mean skin color and superficial physical features, then sure

<Mabus> if you mean anything genetically significant, then no

<mu42> how about Steeplechase…. now there’s a race

<LloydJupiter> you could say that race is just a superficial division invented by humanity to segregate themselves

<mawkish> this is such an 80s topic

<mu42> or the high hurdles …. very difficult race, there

<Mabus> discussing race… is about as helpful as creating “classes” of humans based on arbitrary heights.

<LloydJupiter> the 80s were all right, a bit heavy on moustaches… but alright

<Mabus> as if being 5.0 feet tall was substantially significant as opposed to being 4.11

<Mabus> or 4.11999999

<Doolittle> well said

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<Doolittle> 🙂

<Doolittle> but…

<mu42> ideologies of “race”, in regards to some interpretation of genetics,

are a tool … most often, a tool of oppression

<Doolittle> all of this depends on where you’re from right?

<Mabus> in what way?

<Mabus> what difference does it matter whether you’re from area x or area


<Doolittle> also who you are

<Mabus> culturally maybe

<Mabus> not genetically

<Doolittle> simple if I was from Zaire then I would probably

<Mabus> you would probably …

<Doolittle> think a lot about racism

<Mabus> why?

<LloydJupiter>why would someone in Zaire think more about racism or

race than someone from Japan? Or from Russia?

<Mabus> I think a country like Zaire, where almost everyone is black … I doubt you’d think about racism at all

<Mabus> if you were born in Alabama USA … then it would be a much bigger issue

<Doolittle> well if I was Zaire and I was living in the UK

<Doolittle> anyways I’m not

<Mabus> see but if you were in Zaire but was born in the UK {was white}.. then you’d think about it too

<Mabus> in fact…

<Doolittle> what

<Mabus> if you were born in catholic Ireland, and was living in protestant

Ireland, you’d be very concerned with prejudice {which is

basically racism}

<Mabus> so skin color isn’t an issue at all really

<mu42> yeah, but ‘race’, being a tool of separation, can pop up in the most homogeneous of societies…. while a person outside might not see any difference between two groups… one of the groups might be Long Pig for the others

<mu42> “Well, you know, their eye just ‘aren’t right.'”

<Doolittle> that’s right

<mu42> yes

<Doolittle> actually if you were Asia

<Doolittle> then differences are very palpable

<Doolittle> almost ‘racist’.

<Doolittle> and if you were from Asia then you would think about race

<Mabus> you may or may not think about it… anywhere

<Mabus> you’re not really making any salient points here

<Mabus> people think about prejudice {race included}, whenever or wherever they are a minority group within a large majority

<Mabus> if you’re French in an English country, prejudice will bother you

<Mabus> and so on

<mawkish> There’s nothing wrong with thinking there are differences between races, it’s only a problem when people think there is any difference in value from one race to another

<Doolittle> but if you were in a country that’s been a colony

<Doolittle> then you would see yourself as lesser compared to your coloniser

<Mabus> you may

<Mabus> or you may not

<LloydJupiter> that doesn’t always work like that

<LloydJupiter> and often works to the negative of that statement

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<Doolittle> why is that?

<Doolittle> how?

<Doolittle> lets say for example I was from Pakistan or India

<Doolittle> these countries really harbor a lot of differences

<mawkish> you think?

<mu42> Oh yes they do…. Pakistanis…. taxis……. Indians…… Quicky-Marts….. big differences

<Doolittle> but everyone thinks that fair people are really beautiful for some reason

<LloydJupiter> .

<LloydJupiter> heh

<LloydJupiter> fair people don’t think so

<Doolittle> in India or in Pakistan

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<MusLm> Doolittle, I am from Pakistan; major difference is Islam

<Doolittle> there’s an industry that makes big business

<Doolittle> selling products to increase fairness

<Doolittle> it’s funny

<mu42> hmmmmm… products to increase fairness….. like pot?

<LloydJupiter> heh

<Doolittle> like creams

<Doolittle> with bleach in them

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<Doolittle> bleaching agents, harmful chemicals

<mu42> pot would be easier

<Doolittle> and Muslim, lets not talk about religion being a divider

<LloydJupiter> you know there is also a massive industry that revolves

around making people darker

<Doolittle> sun tan?

<mu42> here’s what it is, there’s a massive industry devoted to making

people into what they are not

<mu42> the ‘seductive other’

<LloydJupiter> mu42, exactly, it’s called the fashion industry

<Doolittle> the ‘seductive’ other?

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<mu42> sure…. people are told that there is ‘something better’ an ‘other’ that they need to be like… they don’t know anything much about it, other than they have been told it is desirable…. it is seductive in being unknown and promoted as ‘better!’

<Doolittle> but the other is the butt of prejudice

<Doolittle> you have like myths about how dangerous s/he is

<Doolittle> and how s/he needs to be subjugated

<Iorek> its not about making people into what they are not its about getting people to buy what they are selling

<Doolittle> like politicians

<Doolittle> who sell themselves

<Iorek> sure

<Doolittle> trying to get people to be like each other

<Iorek> if what they are selling is to do that, sure

<Doolittle> like I don’t know what do you mean

<Iorek> some people sell diversity

<Doolittle> ha ha

<Iorek> some sell unity

<Doolittle> it’s problematic

<Iorek> not really

<Doolittle> in a diverse place

<mu42> “diversity” and “harmony” are commodities… bought and sold to the highest bidder

<LloydJupiter> I sell empty boxes and call it a “fresh blast of reality”

<Iorek> the market will decide what it wants

<Iorek> or what it will get duped into

<Doolittle> you would sell diversity to a united people

<Iorek> the old saying ‘buyer beware’ is as true now as it was true when it was conceived

<Doolittle> and vice versa

<mu42> there’s no freakin’ profit to be made in satisfaction

<Reasoned1> Iorek..true

<mu42> the profit is in selling the idea of dissatisfaction

<Iorek> sure

<Iorek> nothing wrong with that

<Doolittle> in politics there is no ‘selling’ in the basic sense

<Doolittle> or at least there shouldn’t be

<mu42> since when?

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<mu42> that’s what politics is….. The selling of social satisfaction

<Mabus> politics is nothing BUT selling 🙂

<Iorek> yup

<Mabus> the selling of ideas, and power

<Doolittle> not in its ideal

<Mabus> in it’s fictional ideal sure

<Mabus> but we’re talking about reality

<mu42> when has that “ideal” ever been a reality?

<Mabus> last Thursday

<Iorek> politicians, sell their image, ideas, position, platform, personality,


<Mabus> for about five minutes

<Mabus> you missed it 🙂

<mu42> that long?

<Doolittle> what’s this?

<Mabus> in some cases even their souls 😛

* mu42 hears a sinister laugh somewhere near the basement door

<Mabus> lol

<Reasoned1> mu42, I can’t imagine anyone being “satisfied” with how the Iraq “war” is going. Much less the so called “war” on terror

<LloydJupiter> reasoned, I’ve talked to a lot of people on IRC who seem to think the current American wars are “satisfactory” and need to continue for hopes of “world peace”

<mu42> Reasoned1: well, unless it is those who are so utterly embarrassed that they’d swallow a bucket of warm piss and ask for more, rather than own up to ordering a bucket of warm piss to drink in the first place

<LloydJupiter> no one in the real world has been able to say those things to me with a straight face though

<Reasoned1> LloydJupiter. No doubt. But that is the same mindset that got folks like Bush/Cheney into office

<StevenD> Howdy Mabus

<Doolittle> it’s still a bucket of warm piss, not iced tea

<Reasoned1> mu42..leave it to the “armchair generals” to believe that “terrorism” can be defeated by creating “terrorism”

<mu42> “Damn…. did I order that piss to drink???? Well…. better not send it back and look stupid. ‘Oooh…. good piss.’ *ack* *ack*”

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<LloydJupiter> or when they make movies depicting anyone that appears slightly arab as a terrorist… common practice in the 70s and 80s

<LloydJupiter> and even a few times in the 90s, although they would counter that racism with an Arab police officer

<Doolittle> it’s really rampant in Indian films now

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<Doolittle> most goons are Muslim

<EnglishGent> hi all 🙂

<Doolittle> 🙂

<Reasoned1> LloydJupiter. I guess it’s hard to expect objectivity from a populace where the script of many movies allows Americans to win all conflicts. To hell with reality. It has been blacked out by those in political power

<Doolittle> hi EG

<LloydJupiter> yeah, I saw the same thing when I lived in Thailand, as they have their own Islamic separatist state there

<EnglishGent> hi Doolittle 🙂

<Doolittle> they have their own Islamic separatist State in Thailand?

<LloydJupiter> yeah, in the south, Pattani province

<LloydJupiter> when I worked for a newspaper in Thailand I took a few tours to see the bombing locations and protest marches

<Reasoned1> LloydJupiter. Was your editor very objective?

<LloydJupiter> a mostly Muslim province that wants to form an Islamic nation encompassing south Thailand, Malaysia, and upper Indonesia

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<EnglishGent> hi karstensrage

<EnglishGent> wb Elduran 🙂

<Elduran> EG: you can tell we’re both from the UK… We seem to appear and disappear at similar times 😉

<karstensrage> morning EnglishGent

<karstensrage> morning all

<LloydJupiter> Reasoned, no, I couldn’t print anything even remotely anti-government (as its a crime punishable by death), or anything about tourist problems, or robberies, or suspicious deaths

<Reasoned1> LloydJupiter. No wonder religious fanaticism appeals to such ilk

<Doolittle> Pakistan is mostly the creation of one man

<EnglishGent> LloydJupiter – where was this?

<LloydJupiter> Hua Hun, in Prachuabkhirikhan, Thailand

<LloydJupiter> it’s an area south of Bangkok on the border between Thailand and Myanmar

<LloydJupiter> so lots of interesting stuff was always happening, we just couldnt write about it

* EnglishGent didn’t know criticizing the Thai government was a capital crime

<EnglishGent> I knew their govt was less democratic than western ones – but that I didn’t know 😐

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<LloydJupiter> EG, making a remark against the King or royal family will get a foreigner a life term in jail, as the Swedish man recently learned when he wrote graffitti on a picture of the king in Bangkok

<LloydJupiter> It’s also technically illegal to not have a picture of the king in your home and business

<Reasoned1> LloydJupiter..well..I`m a firm believer that every nation has the kind of government the majority of its people deserve

<Doolittle> 🙂

<Doolittle> that solves a lot of problems.

<LloydJupiter> Reasoned, well, I would say that is semi-reasonable for developed nations, but most developing nations are so full of corruption and corporate greed that the peoples say has no effect

<LloydJupiter> we can say a lot about how bad and corrupt our governments in North America are, but we got nothing on the third world

<Reasoned1> Lloyd Jupiter. Makes one wonder why millions tolerate such regimes

<LloydJupiter> no choice

<LloydJupiter> no knowledge of another possibility

<LloydJupiter> American media is available in those countries, but often seen as total fiction

<Doolittle> no empowerment

<Reasoned1> Lloyd Jupiter. I’m sure there was a time that most people in Russia felt the same way. But when things got bad enough. They rose up

<LloydJupiter> Myanmar is a good example; they have been in a series of mini-civil wars against themselves but even knowledge of those wars in rare within the country itself

<Reasoned1> EnglishGent. It’s just that I feel a nations people should look at political officials as “servants”, not “leaders”

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<EnglishGent> Reasoned1 – depends what you mean… I think there’s a difference between being a ‘leader’ and being ‘in charge’

<EnglishGent> leadership is something you can show without having _any_ rank or official title

<EnglishGent> the problem is when people think that rank/title implies they show leadership

<Turquoise`> true — and most leaders are aware that they serve.

<Turquoise`> Unless they’re monarchs.

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<Turquoise`> or dictators.

<Turquoise`> then they demand service.:)

<Reasoned1> EnglishGent. People who seek “leaders” are often easily led. Gets in the way of a nations people doing their job, which to me is forming objective criticism of their actions when needed

<Turquoise`> yeah, and having the power to remove them from office.

<EnglishGent> even there it depends… it’s *possible* to be both a monarch and leader… most monarchs have a sense of entitlement I’ll concede – but I wouldn’t say it *automatically* follows

<Turquoise`> it’s rare, without PR, to find a monarch who can lead.

<Doolittle> take the Dalai Lama’s case for instance

<Reasoned1> Turquoise`. Indeed. Ironic that in America we have the means for an orderly removal of public officials, yet it seems of late, the only time the public has the willpower, is when they have a .D after their name 🙂

<zam_> so what’s the topics dudes?

<Doolittle> although he’s not a monarch

<EnglishGent> King Hussein of Jordan? (Before he died)

<Turquoise`> Leading by example is extremely difficult. People are looking for different things in monarchs and it’s very hard to reach the expectations.

<EnglishGent> he was generally well respected

<Turquoise`> yes

<zam_> no topic?

<Doolittle> rulers and the ruled

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<zam_> life styles of the rich and famous

<Turquoise`> Reasoned1, it’s the breakdown of the democratic foundation showing there.:)

<Doolittle> colonisers and the colonised

<zam_> the rich and powerful

<zam_> general overview?

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<zam_> sun tsu would have been a great leader

<Doolittle> who?

<zam_> he wrote the art of war

<zam_> there is a lot to gain from for leaders through wars

<Reasoned1> Turquoise`…yes. It’s a poor democracy that allows a faction continued rule when the preponderance of evidence shows them to be liars of a magnitude that dwarfs the opposition

<zam_> think about the plundering of Egypt…